Hello.

I work in the paper industry and we recently had someone (the original
author) from within the company make a program for preventive maintenance.
However, it had some bugs and we wanted to add stuff to it, bu tthe original
author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a free agent programmer.

The free agent spoke with the original programmer and myself for a day. He
fixed afew bugs. For the other bugs and the many improvements we had
listed, he waid that he would need to see the original code, that he would
charge us 2 hours time for looking at the code and studying the list of
improvements. He had already charged us for 8 hours, but his rate was
cheap, so we emailed him the code.

Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire program on
his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite the whole thing?)
He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's doing it without a
contract, that we can buy it from him... but that he owns the copyrights.
(Later on, he would say that because it is an access application and not a
true program, that it iis in a grey area of copy right and that we cannot
claim it as our own and he doubts that he could do claim it for himself...

BS.

I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is stealing the
idea (who knows about the code?)

I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas not a
programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The original
programmer also limited the design very much by not using relationships.

However, this guy (in his 40s or 50s) so interested in writing it, I'm
scared.

What can I do?

-------------------------------

I won't be in town for long, so please reply to daniel_cad at hotmail dot
com . Otherwise, I won't see the message. Thanks.

Tell him to send the code back, pay him for the 10 hours, and say goodbye.
Or tell him you'll only do it with a contract, that stipulates you own the
original and all derivative code he might write, including all new
procedures, methods and algorithms, for the agreed fee. And get your lawyer
to send the letter.

--

Randy Birch
MVP Visual Basic
http://www.mvps.org/vbnet/
Please respond only to the newsgroups so all can benefit.


"Daniel Chartier" <daniel_cat at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3fcc0c78_2@aeinews....
: Hello.
:
: I work in the paper industry and we recently had someone (the original
: author) from within the company make a program for preventive maintenance.
: However, it had some bugs and we wanted to add stuff to it, bu tthe
original
: author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a free agent programmer.
:
: The free agent spoke with the original programmer and myself for a day.
He
: fixed afew bugs. For the other bugs and the many improvements we had
: listed, he waid that he would need to see the original code, that he would
: charge us 2 hours time for looking at the code and studying the list of
: improvements. He had already charged us for 8 hours, but his rate was
: cheap, so we emailed him the code.
:
: Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire program on
: his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite the whole
thing?)
: He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's doing it without a
: contract, that we can buy it from him... but that he owns the copyrights.
: (Later on, he would say that because it is an access application and not a
: true program, that it iis in a grey area of copy right and that we cannot
: claim it as our own and he doubts that he could do claim it for himself...
:
: BS.
:
: I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is stealing
the
: idea (who knows about the code?)
:
: I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas not
a
: programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The original
: programmer also limited the design very much by not using relationships.
:
: However, this guy (in his 40s or 50s) so interested in writing it, I'm
: scared.
:
: What can I do?
:
: -------------------------------
:
: I won't be in town for long, so please reply to daniel_cad at hotmail dot
: com . Otherwise, I won't see the message. Thanks.
:
:

> it, bu tthe original author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a
> free agent programmer.
> ...
> improvements we had listed, he waid that he would need to see the
> original code, that he would charge us 2 hours time for looking at the
> code and studying the list of improvements. He had already charged us
> for 8 hours, but his rate was cheap, so we emailed him the code.

Watch out for "cheap" programmers...

> Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire
> program on his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite
> the whole thing?)

Rewriting the whole thing is often a better answer than putting endless
patches on a bad program.

> He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's

He stresses that he did not steal your design...

> doing it without a contract, that we can buy it from him... but that
> he owns the copyrights. (Later on, he would say that because it is an
> access application and not a true program, that it iis in a grey area
> of copy right and that we cannot claim it as our own and he doubts
> that he could do claim it for himself...
> BS.

This stuff is negotiable. If he writes a progam on his own and sells it
(but not the copyright) to you, then he's right. If you have contracted
to pay him by the hour, for your design, then the copyright is yours.

> I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is
> stealing the idea (who knows about the code?)

Ideas are not copyrightable, but designs are.

> I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas
> not a programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The

Another cheap programmer... A pattern emerges.

> What can I do?

Use contracts with programmers, and don't always pick the cheapest
programmer.

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 04:00:17 GMT, "Randy Birch"
<EMAIL REMOVED> wrote:


<snip>
With reference to Bert Byfield's comments

>:
>: I work in the paper industry and we recently had someone (the original
>: author) from within the company make a program for preventive maintenance.
>: However, it had some bugs and we wanted to add stuff to it, bu tthe
>original
>: author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a free agent programmer.
>:
>: The free agent spoke with the original programmer and myself for a day.
>He
>: fixed afew bugs. For the other bugs and the many improvements we had
>: listed, he waid that he would need to see the original code, that he would
>: charge us 2 hours time for looking at the code and studying the list of
>: improvements. He had already charged us for 8 hours, but his rate was
>: cheap, so we emailed him the code.
>:
>: Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire program on
>: his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite the whole
>thing?)

Because the original was un-maintainable
- written I reckon in Access
It is often 'cheaper' to re-write ones own code, than hack it
- other people's rubbish, one simply reverse engineers

>: He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's doing it without a
>: contract, that we can buy it from him... but that he owns the copyrights.
>: (Later on, he would say that because it is an access application and not a
>: true program, that it iis in a grey area of copy right and that we cannot
>: claim it as our own and he doubts that he could do claim it for himself...

Have you considered that a few simple ideas can quickly become public
domain.

>: I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is stealing
>the
>: idea (who knows about the code?)

If the 'idea' was genuinely something new then you might have a case
- however there is little new under the Sun

>:
>: I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas not
>a
>: programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The original
>: programmer also limited the design very much by not using relationships.
>:
>: However, this guy (in his 40s or 50s) so interested in writing it, I'm
>: scared.
>:
>: What can I do?

Probably your best bet is to make friends with him
- I have often found that a bottle of Scotch works wonders

- also the chances are that he has seen something in your 'idea' that
extends well beyond the Paper Industry
- knowing programmers he has probably spotted something generic
- which you would never have thought of

Personally, I and a few others here are in our 40's to 50's (some even
older), and ... well I would be inclined to suggest that experience
can help avoiding the obvious pitfalls.

>:
>: -------------------------------
>:
>: I won't be in town for long, so please reply to daniel_cad at hotmail dot
>: com . Otherwise, I won't see the message. Thanks.

Never ask a NG to reply by Email
Never publish your Email address (even naively disguised)
- it is asking for Spam .... and I am still suffering 100+ per day

If you are lucky, you have stumbled on a canny programmer who can
provide a really viable system

However, my gut instinct is that you were the guy who was charged with
knocking up a system in Access, got stuck, the bosses called in a pro,
and you are worried about your 'rice bowl' (as they say in China)

If coding is not your forte, then get on with life
- if you want to be a coder then learn from the 'old git'

In your case (I suspect) you would be far better off picking his
brains and staying in your own area
- he is unlikely to want your job
- and could be a useful resource
- Evil old b*stards sometimes ***ist upstarts - evolution etc

"Daniel Chartier" <daniel_cat at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3fcc0c78_2@aeinews....
> Hello.
>
> I work in the paper industry and we recently had someone (the original
> author) from within the company make a program for preventive maintenance.
> However, it had some bugs and we wanted to add stuff to it, bu tthe
original
> author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a free agent programmer.
>
> The free agent spoke with the original programmer and myself for a day.
He
> fixed afew bugs. For the other bugs and the many improvements we had
> listed, he waid that he would need to see the original code, that he would
> charge us 2 hours time for looking at the code and studying the list of
> improvements. He had already charged us for 8 hours, but his rate was
> cheap, so we emailed him the code.
>
> Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire program on
> his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite the whole
thing?)
> He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's doing it without a
> contract, that we can buy it from him... but that he owns the copyrights.
> (Later on, he would say that because it is an access application and not a
> true program, that it iis in a grey area of copy right and that we cannot
> claim it as our own and he doubts that he could do claim it for himself...
>
> BS.
>
> I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is stealing
the
> idea (who knows about the code?)
>
> I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas not
a
> programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The original
> programmer also limited the design very much by not using relationships.
>
> However, this guy (in his 40s or 50s) so interested in writing it, I'm
> scared.
>
> What can I do?
>

I am with Randy on this one. Send him away.

If you're paying him for looking at the code and him designing and recoding
then the code is yours. Having someone grab a hold of your product and
possibly making money commercially using all the hours that you will be
paying him is ridiculous.

Although I agree, many times, rewriting the code would be faster than
debugging and understanding someone else's code.

Hello.

I saw your message just before leaving town. I won't be able to read your
future replies until Saturday.

So, you say that IF we decide to have him program it, and if we decide that
reprogramming it will be less time consuming, we can only claim the
copyright if he keeps the same design, even if there are some small changes.
Yes, the eal was to pay him by the hour.

However, I find it too coincidental that he would suddenly want to write
this program so soon after our meeting and seeing our code. I do know that
he is available for about one and a half weeks, so he probably anticipates a
sale to us and is using his free time to speed up the process.

So, what if he advances too far in the program before (and if) we do call
him? He will say that he did it on his own time, and that if we change the
design then ne will have to restart. The new design will be ours, but he
might try to black mail us into paying his time for the intermediate version
if he did not keep our design (which he can't do because of copyright).

Blackmail. He's blackmailing me.

I really don't know what to tell my boss...

... Can I ask the company lawyers to scare him into submission/giving up all
copyrights because he saw our program and code?

It should be mentionned that this programmer specialises in programs for
industry. In fact, the name of his company translates into "Mechanical
management". He has 25 years experience doing management of inventories,
and I suppose preventive maintenance.

"Bert Byfield" <EMAIL REMOVED> wrote in message
news:Xns944575A171586bertbyfieldcaravelab@127.0.0. 1...
> > it, bu tthe original author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a
> > free agent programmer.
> > ...
> > improvements we had listed, he waid that he would need to see the
> > original code, that he would charge us 2 hours time for looking at the
> > code and studying the list of improvements. He had already charged us
> > for 8 hours, but his rate was cheap, so we emailed him the code.
>
> Watch out for "cheap" programmers...
>
> > Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire
> > program on his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite
> > the whole thing?)
>
> Rewriting the whole thing is often a better answer than putting endless
> patches on a bad program.
>
> > He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's
>
> He stresses that he did not steal your design...
>
> > doing it without a contract, that we can buy it from him... but that
> > he owns the copyrights. (Later on, he would say that because it is an
> > access application and not a true program, that it iis in a grey area
> > of copy right and that we cannot claim it as our own and he doubts
> > that he could do claim it for himself...
> > BS.
>
> This stuff is negotiable. If he writes a progam on his own and sells it
> (but not the copyright) to you, then he's right. If you have contracted
> to pay him by the hour, for your design, then the copyright is yours.
>
> > I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is
> > stealing the idea (who knows about the code?)
>
> Ideas are not copyrightable, but designs are.
>
> > I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas
> > not a programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The
>
> Another cheap programmer... A pattern emerges.
>
> > What can I do?
>
> Use contracts with programmers, and don't always pick the cheapest
> programmer.
>
>
>

Hello, Raoul.

That is exactly what I am afraid of. That we will pay his hours, then he
will sell the code to other companies.

So, either we get him to write it and force him to sign a contract saying
that he will not sell the program or ideas... but I don't know if that is
going to work. After all, who doesn't recycle good ideas that they see
elsewhere?

Or, we have our lawyers tear him to bits and pieces. And, of course, my
boss is going to treat me similary. Oh hell.

>
> If you're paying him for looking at the code and him designing and
recoding
> then the code is yours. Having someone grab a hold of your product and
> possibly making money commercially using all the hours that you will be
> paying him is ridiculous.
>
> Although I agree, many times, rewriting the code would be faster than
> debugging and understanding someone else's code.
>
>

Talk to your lawyer about a) who owns what and b) a standard intellectual
property and confidentiality release next time you hire somebody to screw
you.

"Daniel Chartier" <daniel_cat at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3fcc0c78_2@aeinews....
> Hello.
>
> I work in the paper industry and we recently had someone (the original
> author) from within the company make a program for preventive maintenance.
> However, it had some bugs and we wanted to add stuff to it, bu tthe
original
> author/programmer was leaving, so we called in a free agent programmer.
>
> The free agent spoke with the original programmer and myself for a day.
He
> fixed afew bugs. For the other bugs and the many improvements we had
> listed, he waid that he would need to see the original code, that he would
> charge us 2 hours time for looking at the code and studying the list of
> improvements. He had already charged us for 8 hours, but his rate was
> cheap, so we emailed him the code.
>
> Today, he calls me back, saying that he will rewrite the entire program on
> his own time. (Why do programmers always want to rewrite the whole
thing?)
> He stresses that it will be all new code, that he's doing it without a
> contract, that we can buy it from him... but that he owns the copyrights.
> (Later on, he would say that because it is an access application and not a
> true program, that it iis in a grey area of copy right and that we cannot
> claim it as our own and he doubts that he could do claim it for himself...
>
> BS.
>
> I'm afraid that this guy liked our own idea so much that he is stealing
the
> idea (who knows about the code?)
>
> I agree that the old code was probably pretty messy. The author iwas not
a
> programmer by trade, he merely learned as he went along. The original
> programmer also limited the design very much by not using relationships.
>
> However, this guy (in his 40s or 50s) so interested in writing it, I'm
> scared.
>
> What can I do?
>
> -------------------------------
>
> I won't be in town for long, so please reply to daniel_cad at hotmail dot
> com . Otherwise, I won't see the message. Thanks.
>
>

"Daniel Chartier" <daniel_cat at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3fcd2f5f_3@aeinews....
> Hello, Raoul.
>
> That is exactly what I am afraid of. That we will pay his hours, then he
> will sell the code to other companies.
>
> So, either we get him to write it and force him to sign a contract saying
> that he will not sell the program or ideas... but I don't know if that is
> going to work. After all, who doesn't recycle good ideas that they see
> elsewhere?
>
> Or, we have our lawyers tear him to bits and pieces. And, of course, my
> boss is going to treat me similary. Oh hell.
>

Your best bet is to do a contract. It may be a little more expensive but to
pay by the hour is very, very expensive. He can milk you dry.

I used to be the head of a development team at a commercial software house
and have programmed over 40 software titles and I can ***ure you that in the
10 years that we have released hundreds of products, the contract always end
up the most cost efficient.

The nice things about contracts is the ability to specify deadlines for
deliveries (in steps, e.g. different sections every two weeks or so). You
can also include so that the source code is submitted. Most importantly the
schedule of payment is incremental. The contract I used even would reduce
the amount if the delivery is beyond 20 days late. Most importantly please
have the code quality controlled and tested by an independent / unbiased
individual who is experienced in software testing (platform compatibility,
user interface consistencies, bugs, etc.)

"Daniel Chartier" <daniel_cat at hotmail dot com> wrote in message
news:3fcd2f5f_3@aeinews....
> Hello, Raoul.
>
> That is exactly what I am afraid of. That we will pay his hours, then
he
> will sell the code to other companies.
>
> So, either we get him to write it and force him to sign a contract
saying
> that he will not sell the program or ideas... but I don't know if that
is
> going to work. After all, who doesn't recycle good ideas that they
see
> elsewhere?
>
> Or, we have our lawyers tear him to bits and pieces. And, of course,
my
> boss is going to treat me similary. Oh hell.
>

First, you should relax a little. Consider these points:

1. Your company has not invested much in this program so far.
2. Your company has no plans to enter into the software business (I
***ume).
3. Your current design did not even use database relationships - its a
very basic implementation.
4. Preventive maintenance has been done. I once did a database project
for a paper company just for UT inspection of dryer bolts to detect
corrosion induced cracks.

The guy is probably interested in selling you the program instead of
just charging for time because he knows it will take quite a bit of time
to do it up right, and he thinks you would balk at the total hours he
would charge. So instead, he figures he will sell it to you for less,
and try to sell it to a few other companies as well - spread out the
cost a little, in other words.

Let him take a shot at it. If you don't like the program he produces, or
the cost, you are under no obligation to buy it. (Be sure to point that
out to him the next time you chat, his tune may change a little). And if
it turns out
to be a great program for you at a reasonable cost, and he makes some
money on it as well, we call that a win-win situation.

The chances that you are letting highly valuable intellectual property
slip through your hands are actually very small. He is not named Bill
Gates, and your program is not DOS.

Meanwhile, if you want, you can hire someone else to do the changes you
are seeking.

Steve